Non Saint Oath?

[AsaClaus]

Is anyone aware of an oath that doesn’t mention St. Nick? For those of us who believe in the power and good of Santa Claus but choose to not incorporate religious philosophies into the oath itself?

[Sundblom Santa]

I'm personally not aware of any. I was always under the impression that St. Nicholas was placed into the Oath as more a matter of history/pedigree than anything else, although I could be wrong. As a longtime admirer of the Oath and the history surrounding it (and to quote @Santa SteveKl), I'm following to learn.

[ScotStNickMrsC]

I understand that it's not in the oath however I'm just confused about how is Santa Claus able to be called St Nicholas?

[Sundblom Santa]

Just now, ScotStNickMrsC said:

I understand that it's not in the oath however I'm just confused about how is Santa Claus able to be called St Nicholas?

Santa Claus was based upon the Dutch Sinterklaas, who was in turn based on St. Nicholas of Myra (ca. 270-343 AD).

[Rob Thompson]

2 hours ago, AsaClaus said:

Is anyone aware of an oath that doesn’t mention St. Nick? For those of us who believe in the power and good of Santa Claus but choose to not incorporate religious philosophies into the oath itself?

This chap may be able to help lol  

[Phil Wenz]

I will seek knowledge to be well versed in the mysteries of bringing Christmas cheer and good will to all the people that I encounter in my journeys and travels.

I shall be dedicated to hearing the secret dreams of both children and adults.

I understand that the true and only gift I can give, as Santa, is myself.

I acknowledge that some of the requests I will hear will be difficult and sad. I know in these difficulties there lies an opportunity to bring a spirit of warmth, understanding and compassion.

I know the "real reason for the season" and know that I am blessed to be able to be a part of it.

I realize that I belong to a brotherhood and will be supportive, honest and show fellowship to my peers.

I promise to use "my" powers to create happiness, spread love and make fantasies come to life in the true and sincere tradition of the Santa Claus Legend.

I pledge myself to these principles as a descendant of St. Nicholas the gift giver of Myra.

[Phil Wenz]

St. Nicholas is remembered and revered among Catholic and Orthodox Christians. He is also honored by the Anglican, Lutheran, and many, many, other churches.

Nicholas was born in Patara of Lycia during the third century, of devout and wealthy parents who provided him with a Christian upbringing and education. He was orphaned at an early age. He probably became a monk, and when the bishop of his district died, he was made Bishop of Myra of Lycia. Nicholas is distinguished for his faith, especially for his charity. His faith was so great, that with his prayer he calmed a stormy sea while on a trip to the Holy Lands. It is for this reason sailors pay homage to him as their protector.

He fought for the predominance of Orthodoxy and took part in the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea. Especially well-known is his charity and love for children, he used his great wealth to relieve all who were in need: families, widows, orphans, and children. For this same purpose he founded, as Bishop, a poorhouse, hostelries, and a hospital. He was the personification of Christian love and affection. As such he is honored by the entire Christian world, both the Eastern and Western Churches. In the West especially he is considered as the great patron Saint of children and in modern times as the cheerful giver of gifts, Santa.

Widely celebrated in Europe, St. Nicholas’ feast day, December 6th keeps alive the stories of his goodness and generosity. In Germany and Poland, boys dressed as bishops begging alms for the poor and sometimes for themselves! In the Netherlands and Belgium, St. Nicholas arrives on a steamship from Spain to ride a white horse on his gift-giving rounds.

December 6th is still the main day for gift giving and merrymaking in much of Europe. For example, in the Netherlands he is celebrated on the 5th, the eve of his feast day by sharing candies thrown in the door, chocolate initial letters, gifts, and riddles. Dutch children leave carrots and hay in their shoes for the Saint’s horse, hoping St. Nicholas will exchange them for small gifts. Simple gift giving in early Advent helps preserve a Christmas Day focus on the Christ Child. – Information from St. Nicholas Center.

[Phil Wenz]

3 hours ago, AsaClaus said:

Is anyone aware of an oath that doesn’t mention St. Nick? For those of us who believe in the power and good of Santa Claus but choose to not incorporate religious philosophies into the oath itself?

I will seek knowledge to be well versed in the mysteries of bringing Christmas cheer and good will to all the people that I encounter in my journeys and travels.

I shall be dedicated to hearing the secret dreams of both children and adults.

I understand that the true and only gift I can give, as Santa, is myself.

I acknowledge that some of the requests I will hear will be difficult and sad. I know in these difficulties there lies an opportunity to bring a spirit of warmth, understanding and compassion.

I know the "real reason for the season" and know that I am blessed to be able to be a part of it.

I realize that I belong to a brotherhood and will be supportive, honest and show fellowship to my peers.

I promise to use "my" powers to create happiness, spread love and make fantasies come to life in the true and sincere tradition of the Santa Claus Legend.

I pledge myself to these principles as a descendant of St. Nicholas the gift giver of Myra.

[Phil Wenz]

Part of the Oath cannon...

I believe in the miracle of the manger and the message of the child who was born as the Messiah as God's true gift to all mankind. I acknowledge the Passion and the sacrifice made as a paradigm that it is truly better to give than to receive. I understand the devotion of Nicholas of Myra and his conviction to God's love for all mankind as an example to follow. I am a mere mortal who has no magical powers except the belief of loyalty to the tradition of the Advent Season that has been handed down from generation to generation to me by my family and friends. I acknowledge that the true basis for the celebration is the child of the manger and I promise to make all children happy to the best of my abilities in his name. I confirm these beliefs to myself and to the Spirit of Christmas as a Knight of St. Nicholas, a servant of people everywhere.

[Phil Wenz]

Knights of St, Nicholas/Oath Cannon...

To uphold the principles of the Santa Claus Oath in our thoughts, actions, and words. To maintain dignity and respect for all people no matter what race, creed, religion or faith. To not be intimidated to stand up for the basic elements of truth, sincerity, and responsibility. To foster, demand, and perpetuate one hundred percent accountability to ourselves and our brethren who belong to the greater Santa Claus Community. To pledge to keep ourselves above reproach to the best of our abilities. To think and act like Santa Claus as much as possible, not taking advantage of the role for unethical motives and dishonorable intentions.

We will preserve the memories and stories of our departed associates with respect. We shall not forget those whom have come before us and passed the traditions to us. We accept our responsibility to them by fostering new Santas, Mrs. Clauses, and Elves to join one of the pre-established local, regional or national Santa groups.

We acknowledge the true meaning of Christmas and will seek to participate in volunteerism in our villages, towns, and cities proving our dedication that it is better to give than to receive. We will promote peace on earth and goodwill towards all men, women, and children everywhere. We will sanctify the Spirit of St. Nicholas by committing to our Santa groups by our devotion to the mutual understanding that we are mere human beings, but as a brotherhood, we represent something much larger and extraordinary - the opportunity and privilege to be Santa Claus.

We pledge ourselves to remain true and not falter when challenges to our mission occur and to be faithful to our mission and to each other.

[Phil Wenz]

K of St. N cannon

Display ethical behavior in the presentation of the Santa Claus and Mrs. Claus characters to the public and in our conduct as portrayers, including not interfering with or jeopardizing the performance of another Santa Claus or Mrs. Claus either through personal intervention or the unauthorized use of acquiring his contracted appearance.

Be true to the religious aspect of Christmas, be true to the traditional customs of Christmas, and be true to your conviction as Santa Claus or Mrs. Santa Claus.

Recognize and have respect for rights of the creators, authors, and owners of Santa Claus or Mrs. Santa Claus concepts, presentations, and literature, and their rights to have exclusive use of, or to grant permission for the use by others of such creations.

Dissuade false, dishonest, and misleading methods in the recruitment of Santas, Mrs. Clauses, and Helpers for personal or financial gain.

Encourage the honest and truthful fellowship of all Santas, Mrs. Clauses, and Helpers.

Hold ourselves and each other accountable for misconduct by encouraging communication, tolerance, and telling the truth.

Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any secrets of the Santa Claus Legend and any attempt to destroy the hope, belief, and magic of children of all ages.

Be responsible for our personal actions be it good or bad.

Support each other in true, clean, and honest business practices.

Encourage volunteerism in the true Spirit of Christmas.

Promote the humane treatment and care of reindeer or any livestock used in a Santa Claus or Mrs. Santa Claus appearance.

Refrain from the use of alcohol, tobacco or foul language while in character.

[Phil Wenz]

1 hour ago, ScotStNickMrsC said:

I understand that it's not in the oath however I'm just confused about how is Santa Claus able to be called St Nicholas?

Ask any child what Santa looks like and he or she can probably describe him as a big guy with a white beard, a red suit and hat, and a reindeer-drawn sleigh. But how did the gift-giving habits of Nicholas, a Christian saint who lived in the third century, evolve into the myth of a jolly old elf that slides down chimneys?

 

Two people, political cartoonist Thomas Nast and author Clement C. Moore can largely take credit for popularizing today’s image of Santa as a jolly, rotund fellow who wears a fur-trimmed red suit. But the evolution from St. Nicholas to the image of today’s Santa occurred over a long period.

 

Nicholas was born in 270 AD in what is now Turkey. His parents were wealthy, devout Christians who died when he was little. Following the advice of Jesus to give to the poor, Nicholas gave away his entire inheritance to the poor and needy. He became the Bishop of Myra while still a young man, and continued to help those in need, particularly children.

Nicholas was known for his generosity. The most popular legend about St. Nicholas tells of a poor man who had three daughters but couldn’t afford a dowry for them. This meant that they would remain unmarried and probably, in the absence of any other possible employment, would have to become prostitutes. Nicholas decided to help the man by going to his house at night and throwing three purses (one for each daughter) filled with gold coins through the window.

Another version of the story has him throwing the coins down the chimney, which explains the connection to Santa’s preference for entering homes via the chimney.

The legend of this generous saint was brought to the New World by Dutch settlers, and the name Santa Claus would evolve from the Dutch nickname, Sinter Klaas, a shortened form of Sint Nikolaas. The saint became a part of local lore when John Pintard founded the New York Historical Society in 1804 and made St. Nicholas the patron saint of the society and New York City.

St. Nick received another boost a few years later when Washington Irving joined the society and published a work called Knickerbockers History of New York on St. Nicholas Day. The work contained numerous references to a jolly St. Nicholas character.

It was Clement Clarke Moore’s poem, “A Visit from St. Nicholas”, (now better known as “The Night Before Christmas”) that cemented the image of St. Nicholas as a jolly old elf with a little round belly, that shook when he laughed, like a bowlful of jelly. Moore reportedly wrote the poem for his family in 1822. It was first printed in a newspaper a year later, and it then became popular and was reprinted anonymously in a number of publications.

Political cartoonist Thomas Nast helped popularize the image Moore created in the famous poem. In 1863 Nast began drawing a series of annual cartoons for Harper’s Weekly that was based on the character in the poem and in Washington Irving’s work. Nash’s Santa has a beard, fur clothing, and a pipe, and was the basis for many Santas to follow. He was also the one to invent the North Pole, elves, and Mrs. Claus.

 

 

By the early 1900s, the image of Santa in a red suit and hat was so common that the Volunteers of America began dressing men in Santa Claus suits and sending them into the streets of New York to solicit donations for the Christmas meals for the needy. Later, artists such as Norman Rockwell and companies such as Coca-Cola continued to popularize the image of Santa Claus as a bearded fellow in a red suit in both artwork and advertising.

 

Today, Santa Claus is now a common image of Christmas who still carries on the spirit of giving that St. Nicholas started centuries ago and his likeness is known across the world.

Santa’s Different Names

Naturally, Santa Claus is known worldwide, often under aliases and similar but not exact costuming. His job however remains the same.

In the United States and Canada, he is known as Santa Claus. He is the Jolly old elf who traverses down chimneys to bring all the little boys and girls of the world gifts and good cheer. He is legendary, immortalized in song and book and seen in shopping malls everywhere.

Most of us know he sometimes goes by Kris Kringle. This name originated in Southern Germany. Literally translated it means Christ Child. German children also refer to him as Weihnachtsmann, meaning Christmas Man.

The French of course have Pere Noel, which isn’t that far from Spain’s Papa Noel. Spanish speaking countries and French speaking countries all refer to the sweet jolly old elf as Father Christmas when translated.

Sinterklaas comes from the Dutch, and it is speculated that by slightly mispronouncing this name, the American “Santa Claus” came to be. This of course is just speculation, but it certainly makes sense.

Countries such as Croatia consider Santa Claus to be more of a grandfatherly figure than a father figure, and thus have given him the name of Grandfather Christmas.

Bulgaria sort of borrowed their version of Santa from the Russians, called him Grandfather Christmas and dressed him nearly identically.

Some countries have various versions of Santa Claus that aren’t readily related to Christmas celebrations. Often celebrating the 6th of December or thereabouts, the Santa Claus as Americans know him is actually more of a Christ figure, with literal translations meaning Christ Child or Little Jesus. These entities have the same effect as the American known Santa Claus, often bringing treats or gifts.

Finland and Scandinavian countries are more partial to the “Yule Goat.†The Yule Goat rides from house to house delivering all kinds of cherished gifts while in turn hoping for a nibble of porridge to keep him warm and energized for his very busy night.

Lichtenstein and Austria refer to the Santa figure as ChristKind. ChristKind is a moderate blend of a religious entity and the more traditional understanding of Santa Claus.

Italy has the entire family involved. Most recognize Babbo Natale as being Father Christmas, but the gifts are delivered by a woman who rides a broom instead of a sleigh, although she is not considered a witch. She is called La Befana and she fills the traditional Western impression of Santa Claus from upon her broomstick.

Asian countries, outlying islands, even most Middle Eastern countries have some version of Santa Claus. While he may not be quite the same figure as Americans recognize, sometimes delivering gifts as early as December 5th, the notion is all the same.

The only country that doesn’t recognize Santa Claus in one fashion or another is of course Israel, where most of the population is primarily Jewish and there is no Santa Claus that related to Jewish tradition.

Traditions, dates, and even the core of Santa Claus’s origination vary from country to country. Some people celebrate him as a gift giver while others celebrate him as a historical religious figure.

Of course, each individual entity is still modeled after St. Nicholas, who spent his life and his inheritance giving to those who needed and did so as anonymously as possible.

As Santa Claus takes various forms, the nature of his purpose remains the same. His mission in this world is to deliver gifts, spread holiday joy and cheer, and of course, encourage the imagination of children everywhere.

Jolly Old St. Nick is quite alive and doing very well in the spirits of people throughout the world.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Phil Wenz

[Phil Wenz]

1 hour ago, Rob Thompson said:

This chap may be able to help lol  

Wow....I'll pray for you....

[Phil Wenz]

16 minutes ago, Phil Wenz said:

I will seek knowledge to be well versed in the mysteries of bringing Christmas cheer and good will to all the people that I encounter in my journeys and travels.

I shall be dedicated to hearing the secret dreams of both children and adults.

I understand that the true and only gift I can give, as Santa, is myself.

I acknowledge that some of the requests I will hear will be difficult and sad. I know in these difficulties there lies an opportunity to bring a spirit of warmth, understanding and compassion.

I know the "real reason for the season" and know that I am blessed to be able to be a part of it.

I realize that I belong to a brotherhood and will be supportive, honest and show fellowship to my peers.

I promise to use "my" powers to create happiness, spread love and make fantasies come to life in the true and sincere tradition of the Santa Claus Legend.

I pledge myself to these principles as a descendant of St. Nicholas the gift giver of Myra.

I pledge myself to these principles as a descendant of St. Nicholas the gift giver of Myra.

[Rob Thompson]

30 minutes ago, Phil Wenz said:

Wow....I'll pray for you....

I dont need them Im a believer  

[scottishstnick]

1 hour ago, Sundblom Santa said:

Santa Claus was based upon the Dutch Sinterklaas, who was in turn based on St. Nicholas of Myra (ca. 270-343 AD).

Yea my Mrs Claus is new to all of the lore and history of Santa. 

[Phil Wenz]

Just now, Rob Thompson said:

I dont need them Im a believer  

I am a believer also...I never turn down prayers...guess your too perfect....to have any prays for you. And that's why you need them.

 

[scottishstnick]

Just now, Phil Wenz said:

I am a believer also...I never turn down prayers...guess your too perfect....to have any prays for you. And that's why you need them.

 

 were all just talking and sharing our vast and different knowledge 

[Rob Thompson]

Just now, Phil Wenz said:

I am a believer also...I never turn down prayers...guess your too perfect....to have any prays for you. And that's why you need them.

 

I think you have misunderstood Phil

I certainly do need prayers and re perfect, a bit harsh, Im certainly not perfect no do I profess to be so, indeed who is!,

My original post  was a response to someone who apparently does not believe. Perhaps I was unclear with the post, I dont think I was but never mind

Hope this clears any confusion and no offence intended  

[Rob Thompson]

Lets have a nice cup of tea  

 

[TamaleClaus]

26 minutes ago, Phil Wenz said:

Oath

May Our Heavenly Father give you the wisdom, faith and patience as you share your vast knowledge of Saint Nicholas & Santa. The history and some of the rest of the story. Thanks

[Michael Rielly]

5 hours ago, AsaClaus said:

Is anyone aware of an oath that doesn’t mention St. Nick? For those of us who believe in the power and good of Santa Claus but choose to not incorporate religious philosophies into the oath itself?

These so-called "religious philosophies" should be what we all strive to live up to! The ideals and virtues of St. Nicholas -- generosity, compassion, humility, faith, and justice -- continue to inspire and guide many of us Santas (and Mrs. Clauses) in our daily lives.

Nicholas of Myra's life encapsulates the spirit of giving, embodies the true essence of holiday celebrations, and reminds us of our shared humanity. In a world that lately seems dark and self-centered, the lessons from St. Nicholas's life shine as a beacon of hope and love.

[Phil Wenz]

8 minutes ago, Michael Rielly said:

These so-called "religious philosophies" should be what we all strive to live up to! The ideals and virtues of St. Nicholas -- generosity, compassion, humility, faith, and justice -- continue to inspire and guide many of us Santas (and Mrs. Clauses) in our daily lives.

Nicholas of Myra's life encapsulates the spirit of giving, embodies the true essence of holiday celebrations, and reminds us of our shared humanity. In a world that lately seems dark and self-centered, the lessons from St. Nicholas's life shine as a beacon of hope and love.

I pledge myself to these principles as a descendant of St. Nicholas the gift giver of Myra.

[Michael Rielly]

To understand the Santa Claus Oath, its origin, and reason for being, you have to know the history. So much of the Santa Claus community these days is focused on the wrong things.  

[Rob Thompson]

1 minute ago, Michael Rielly said:

To understand the Santa Claus Oath, its origin, and reason for being, you have to know the history. So much of the Santa Claus community these days is focused on the wrong things.  

Absolutely true,

Too many chasing the money at the expense of the gift we have been given/taken on, to share our passion for and expressing the true meaning of Christmas 

[Phil Wenz]

2 minutes ago, Rob Thompson said:

Absolutely true,

Too many chasing the money at the expense of the gift we have been given/taken on, to share our passion for and expressing the true meaning of Christmas 

You are correct....

About the Oath

The eight principles that make up the Santa Claus Oath were written with the ideals of what portraying Santa should be about. Authored by professional Santa, Phillip L. Wenz, the Oath was inspired by the lives of the two most prolific Santa Claus actors of the 20th century: Charles W. Howard of Albion, New York and Raymond “Jim” Yellig of Santa Claus, Indiana. Upon writing the Santa Claus Oath and publishing it to numerous Santa Claus group websites, the document was adopted by nearly every Santa Claus organization and individual Santa portrayer in the world.

The Oath was dedicated in October 2008 with great pleasure and historical significance. The grandsons of Charles W. Howard and Jim Yellig met in the round room of the Candy Castle in Santa Claus, Indiana, where their grandfathers had met 70 years prior. Will Koch, Jim Yellig’s grandson and Charles Bergeman, Charles W. Howard’s grandson, represented their families and their famous grandfathers by recording the first signatures to the Santa Claus Oath.

In March of 2009 at the Santa Claus Convention in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, the Santa Claus Oath was presented for the first time in public to the Santa Claus community. At the convention, over 600 Santas, Mrs. Clauses and helpers recited in unison the Oath’s eight principles. After the Convention, a traveling ceremony was created for Santa groups to use at their regional gatherings. The Traveling Santa Claus Oath Ceremony has been to 35 cities in the United States and to four other countries; Canada, Denmark, Great Britain and Australia. Along with the traveling ceremony, an official Santa Claus Oath Book was created to hold the thousands of signatures from these events. 

 

It was written because of a fracture in the community....

[AsaClaus]

Gentlemen, I have asked a simple question. I know the history of the oath and I understand St. Nick’s role in the story of Santa Claus. I’ve made no mention of money nor have I even stated that I, myself, am an active Santa. Yet, for reasons I don’t comprehend, this simple question has turned into some kind of groundwork for people repeating the oath, accusing some of Satanism, accusing others of being “in it for the money”, and still others who seem to only want to argue any point. 
 

I hope you can all take a step back and see how silly you are being. No need to understand one another. No friendly welcome. Not even the decency to say “you know what? I can’t say I’ve heard of an oath that doesn’t mention religious figures”. 
 

Thank you for your time. 
 

[AsaClaus]

1 hour ago, Michael Rielly said:

To understand the Santa Claus Oath, its origin, and reason for being, you have to know the history. So much of the Santa Claus community these days is focused on the wrong things.  

What things are those?

[AsaClaus]

5 hours ago, Sundblom Santa said:

I'm personally not aware of any. I was always under the impression that St. Nicholas was placed into the Oath as more a matter of history/pedigree than anything else, although I could be wrong. As a longtime admirer of the Oath and the history surrounding it (and to quote @Santa SteveKl), I'm following to learn.

Very nice response. Thank you!

[AsaClaus]

5 hours ago, ScotStNickMrsC said:

I understand that it's not in the oath however I'm just confused about how is Santa Claus able to be called St Nicholas?

It’s an example of expanding mythologies converging to form a new interpretation of older archetypes. In this case, the Green Man to Odin to St. Nicholas. And each of those individual personas were also added to and subtracted from as different cultures grew in popularity and power. 
 

It’s with the intention of cutting through all that I was interested in a non religious form of the oath. 

[AsaClaus]

4 hours ago, Rob Thompson said:

This chap may be able to help lol  

Not sure what this was for, but I’m sure it was meant to be helpful. 

[Michael Rielly]

21 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

I know the history of the oath and I understand St. Nick’s role in the story of Santa Claus. I’ve made no mention of money nor have I even stated that I, myself, am an active Santa.

No disrespect intended, but I am not sure you do know the origin and reasoning behind the development of the Santa Claus Oath. And as stated earlier, the Santa Claus Oath has nothing to do with religion. Even if one doesn't prescribe to religious faith, the works of Nicholas of Myra (a real person by the way) serve as a universal guideline for ethical behavior, empathy, and compassion. You don't have to be religious to recognize and follow these values, as they offer practical wisdom for everyone, regardless of spiritual beliefs or lack thereof.

[Tim Mack]

21 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

Gentlemen, I have asked a simple question. I know the history of the oath and I understand St. Nick’s role in the story of Santa Claus. I’ve made no mention of money nor have I even stated that I, myself, am an active Santa. Yet, for reasons I don’t comprehend, this simple question has turned into some kind of groundwork for people repeating the oath, accusing some of Satanism, accusing others of being “in it for the money”, and still others who seem to only want to argue any point. 
 

I hope you can all take a step back and see how silly you are being. No need to understand one another. No friendly welcome. Not even the decency to say “you know what? I can’t say I’ve heard of an oath that doesn’t mention religious figures”. 
 

Thank you for your time. 
 

Okay I have no knowledge of an oath that does  not mention the origins of Santa being originated from Nicholas of Myra.  You might consider studying more of this history.  I am  also very familiar with the origins of the Oath and why it was written. 
With all of that it is difficult for some of us to understand why anyone would want to portray someone that they have no belief in.   As far as I am concerned a true atheist is just looking for a way to make some money and in the process not really portraying Santa.  Therefore they are shortchanging the children of all ages that would be coming to visit Santa Claus.  As I really do believe it’s more than than just having a photo taken.

[AsaClaus]

Um…yes. That is the oath. Was this meant to be helpful?

[AsaClaus]

1 minute ago, Tim Mack said:

Okay I have no knowledge of an oath that does  not mention the origins of Santa being originated from Nicholas of Myra.  You might consider studying more of this history.  I am  also very familiar with the origins of the Oath and why it was written. 
With all of that it is difficult for some of us to understand why anyone would want to portray someone that they have no belief in.   As far as I am concerned a true atheist is just looking for a way to make some money and in the process not really portraying Santa.  Therefore they are shortchanging the children of all ages that would be coming to visit Santa Claus.  As I really do believe it’s more than than just having a photo taken.

Now this is a fantastic response and I genuinely thank you! I am a Santa historian, actually, and am fully aware of Nick and his addition to the story of Santa. I am also aware of the bearded gift giver’s origin being primarily that of the Teutonic god Wotan or Odin. 
 

That aside, I do not portray Santa myself but instead seek to live more like the Santa Claus of universal lore. Generous, caring, understanding and patient. He sees all children as “nice” and has no use for religion or the withholding of gifts to coerce niceness. 
 

Im not saying this is what others do, but I am always weary of those who insist on the “saintliness” of this persona as the one true Santa. 

[Michael Rielly]

5 hours ago, ScotStNickMrsC said:

I understand that it's not in the oath however I'm just confused about how is Santa Claus able to be called St Nicholas?

 

26 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

It’s an example of expanding mythologies converging to form a new interpretation of older archetypes. In this case, the Green Man to Odin to St. Nicholas. And each of those individual personas were also added to and subtracted from as different cultures grew in popularity and power.

Actually, no.

The tradition of celebrating the feast of Sinterklaas (Dutch for Saint Nicholas) was brought to America by Dutch settlers in New Amsterdam (New York) in the 17th century. Overtime, the Dutch pronunciation was difficult for English speakers to pronounce. As a result, the name was Americanized to "Santa Claus".

 

 

[AsaClaus]

2 minutes ago, Michael Rielly said:

Actually, no.

The tradition of celebrating the feast of Sinterklaas (Dutch for Saint Nicholas) was brought to America by Dutch settlers in New Amsterdam (New York) in the 17th century. Overtime, the Dutch pronunciation was difficult for English speakers to pronounce. As a result, the name was Americanized to "Santa Claus".

 

 

That is merely the most modern interpretation. Before there was even a Christmas there was Saturnalia and the celebratory gift giving in the name of the god Saturn. To only see or promote one side of the multifaceted history of Santa Claus is to disrespect both the historical nature and societal value of such a character. 

[AsaClaus]

23 minutes ago, Michael Rielly said:

No disrespect intended, but I am not sure you do know the origin and reasoning behind the development of the Santa Claus Oath. And as stated earlier, the Santa Claus Oath has nothing to do with religion. Even if one doesn't prescribe to religious faith, the works of Nicholas of Myra (a real person by the way) serve as a universal guideline for ethical behavior, empathy, and compassion. You don't have to be religious to recognize and follow these values, as they offer practical wisdom for everyone, regardless of spiritual beliefs or lack thereof.

I’m so sorry I didn’t see this response. Great response and I thank you. 

[Michael Rielly]

1 minute ago, AsaClaus said:

That is merely the most modern interpretation. Before there was even a Christmas there was Saturnalia and the celebratory gift giving in the name of the god Saturn. To only see or promote one side of the multifaceted history of Santa Claus is to disrespect both the historical nature and societal value of such a character. 

The question was: "...how is Santa Claus able to be called St Nicholas?" That is the answer.

NOW, if you want to discuss other legends and stories of anonymous gift givers then yes, you can trace the archetype as far back as the second millennium.

[AsaClaus]

4 minutes ago, Michael Rielly said:

The question was: "...how is Santa Claus able to be called St Nicholas?" That is the answer.

NOW, if you want to discuss other legends and stories of anonymous gift givers then yes, you can trace the archetype as far back as the second millennium.

And absolutely! I believe Santa as we know him today is a wonderful amalgamation of all of the wonderful myths and legends and real people that inspired this truly necessary character! 

[Sundblom Santa]

One thing I thought I should point out (no disrespect for our brother @AsaClaus, who I'm glad to see has returned to us): Christmas and St. Nicholas are not (per se) pagan. For more on that, see here: 

The above Christian apologist (Michael Jones of "Inspiring Philosophy" on YouTube) has additional content on Christmas if anyone is interested. That's a more lay-oriented approach, although he cites good material if anyone wishes to read more. 

For a more in-depth treatment and a few additional sources, you can see:

(1) "The Origins of the Liturgical Year" (Thomas J. Talley, Liturgical Press, 1991)

(2) "Toward the Origins of Christmas" (Susan K. Roll, Peeters Publishers, 1995)

(3) "The Birth of the Messiah: A Commentary on the Infancy Narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke" (Raymond L. Brown, Yale University Press, 1999)

(4) "The Birth of Jesus According to the Gospels" (Joseph F. Kelly, Liturgical Press, 2008)

(5) "The Feast of Christmas" (Joseph F. Kelly, Liturgical Press, 2010)

(6) "The Origins of Christmas" (Joseph F. Kelly, Liturgical Press, 2014)

The above works (on the New Testament, early church, and Patriotic materials) clearly demonstrate that Christmas either (1) most likely has no overtly pagan associations, or (2) even if so, those associations are so vague as to be not of much value in determining the origins of the celebration of Christmas in the Patriotic era. It most realistically came about as a result of early Christian meditations on the virginal conception and nativity of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Indeed, the fact that the Jewish-Christian Matthean community seems to have been interested in the nativity of Jesus (Matt. 1:1-2:23) and the historian Luke thought it worthy enough to mention (Lk. 1:1-2:52) seems to show that some celebration of the Lord's birth would have eventually come about sooner or later, most likely without explicit or even implicit pagan associations (given the Second Temple Jewish context of the earliest Christian sources on the life of Jesus). In addition, Luke claimed he had gotten his own material from explicit eyewitnes testimony and possibly some written sources (note Lk. 1:1-4). For Luke's material in his nativity account, it seems that Mary was his main leading lady he interviewed (as implied in Lk. 2:19, 51). If anyone would be interested in good, relevent commentaries on Matthew and Luke, they can see: 

Best Commentaries | Old and New Testament Bible Commentary reviews, ratings, and prices

WWW.BESTCOMMENTARIES.COM

---

Bible commentaries and biblical studies ranked by reviews from scholars, journals, and site users.

My personal favorites for even just nativity material alone would be "A Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew" (Craig S. Keener, William B. Eerdmens Publishing Company, 1999) and "Luke, Volume 1 | 1:1-9:50" (Darrel L. Bock, Baker Academic, 1994). They both have a good rundown on relevant issues in the nativity accounts (e.g., charges of plagiarism, anti-supernatural bias, arguments on historicity, ancient cultural context, and even manuscript and textual issues for anyone who might be interested in that).

Whew! That was really long! Of course, none of what I wrote was at all meant to demonize our dear brother @AsaClaus. I just figured I'd offer a little gentle pushback (or maybe more of a really soft nudge) on the "Christmas was originally pagan" idea.

OK, I'll kindly bow out now. 😊

Edited July 25, 2023 by Sundblom Santa

[Sundblom Santa]

57 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

And absolutely! I believe Santa as we know him today is a wonderful amalgamation of all of the wonderful myths and legends and real people that inspired this truly necessary character! 

To follow up on Michael's point, although the archetype of gift givers goes back a few millennia, the relevant answer to the question would be that Santa Claus was mostly based on St. Nicholas of Myra (ca. 270-343 AD). Nicholas, for many of us, is the starting point (although the archetype itself goes back before then). The character of Santa Claus is not (per se) based on the false god Odin, but on the historical person of St. Nicholas of Myra.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Sundblom Santa

[AsaClaus]

5 minutes ago, Sundblom Santa said:

One thing I thought I should point out (no disrespect for our brother @AsaClaus, who I'm glad to see has returned to see us): Christmas and St. Nicholas are not (per se) pagan. For more on that, see here: 

The above Christian apologist (Michael Jones of "Inspiring Philosophy" on YouTube) has additional content on Christmas if anyone is interested. That's a more lay-oriented approach, although he cites good material if anyone wishes to read more. 

For a more in-depth treatment and a few additional sources, you can see:

(1) "The Origins of the Liturgical Year" (Thomas J. Talley, Liturgical Press, 1991)

(2) "Toward the Origins of Christmas" (Susan K. Roll, Peeters Publishers, 1995)

(3) "The Birth of the Messiah: A Commentary on the Infancy Narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke" (Raymond L. Brown, Yale University Press, 1999)

(4) "The Birth of Jesus According to the Gospels" (Joseph F. Kelly, Liturgical Press, 2008)

(5) "The Feast of Christmas" (Joseph F. Kelly, Liturgical Press, 2010)

(6) "The Origins of Christmas" (Joseph F. Kelly, Liturgical Press, 2014)

The above works (on the New Testament, early church, and Patriotic materials) clearly demonstrate that Christmas either (1) most likely has no overtly pagan associations, or (2) even if so, those associations are so vague as to be not of much value in determining the origins of the celebration of Christmas in the Patriotic era. It most realistically came about as a result of early Christian meditations on the virginal conception and nativity of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Indeed, the fact that the Jewish-Christian Matthean community seems to have been interested in the nativity of Jesus (Matt. 1:1-2:23) and the historian Luke thought it worthy enough to mention (Lk. 1:1-2:52) seems to show that some celebration of the Lord's birth would have eventually come about sooner or later, most likely without explicit or even implicit pagan associations (given the Second Temple Jewish context of the earliest Christian sources on the life of Jesus). In addition, Luke claimed he had gotten his own material from explicit eyewitnes testimony and possibly some written sources (note Lk. 1:1-4). For Luke's material in his nativity account, it seems that Mary was his main leading lady he interviewed (as implied in Lk. 2:19, 51). If anyone would be interested in good, relevent commentaries on Matthew and Luke, they can see: 

Best Commentaries | Old and New Testament Bible Commentary reviews, ratings, and prices

WWW.BESTCOMMENTARIES.COM

---

Bible commentaries and biblical studies ranked by reviews from scholars, journals, and site users.

My personal favorites for even just nativity material alone would be "A Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew" (Craig S. Keener, William B. Eerdmens Publishing Company, 1999) and "Luke, Volume 1 | 1:1-9:50" (Darrel L. Bock, Baker Academic, 1994). They both have a good rundown on relevant issues in the nativity accounts (e.g., charges of plagiarism, anti-supernatural bias, arguments on historicity, ancient cultural context, and even manuscript and textual issues for anyone who might be interested in that).

Whew! That was really long! Of course, none of what I wrote was at all meant to demonize our dear brother @AsaClaus. I just figured I'd offer a little gentle pushback (or maybe more of a really soft nudge) on the "Christmas was originally pagan" idea.

OK, I'll kindly bow out now. 😊

Haha! Now that was nicely done! Now while this original post wasn’t intended as a historical debate of the origins of Christmas, here we are. 
I understand that for many here the historical nature of religious and cultural branching, overthrowing and combining may be uncomfortable, but if we are going to claim we stand for the “history of Santa”, we must acknowledge the actual, historically sound academia of it all. 
Several large pagan groups celebrated the birth of their savior god/sun god/light child god in December. Several of them had wise old bearded gift givers that especially liked children. Saturnalia was directly (Rome’s own historical records show) reimagined as a celebration not of Saturn, but of the newfound Christian god Yeshua. That was very little more than a renaming of the holiday. 
I’m not saying one is better or more important than the others, I’m saying that to fully embrace the season and the value and historical importance of Santa, you MUST be open to all of it. 
To allow one’s faith to dictate one’s history is to devalue and disrespect both. 

[Sundblom Santa]

1 hour ago, AsaClaus said:

Haha! Now that was nicely done! Now while this original post wasn’t intended as a historical debate of the origins of Christmas, here we are. 
I understand that for many here the historical nature of religious and cultural branching, overthrowing and combining may be uncomfortable, but if we are going to claim we stand for the “history of Santa”, we must acknowledge the actual, historically sound academia of it all. 
Several large pagan groups celebrated the birth of their savior god/sun god/light child god in December. Several of them had wise old bearded gift givers that especially liked children. Saturnalia was directly (Rome’s own historical records show) reimagined as a celebration not of Saturn, but of the newfound Christian god Yeshua. That was very little more than a renaming of the holiday. 
I’m not saying one is better or more important than the others, I’m saying that to fully embrace the season and the value and historical importance of Santa, you MUST be open to all of it. 
To allow one’s faith to dictate one’s history is to devalue and disrespect both. 

Why, thank you! I'm glad you find it stimulating. One thing, though: Saturnalia wasn't stolen by the early Christians (per Talley, Roll, and Kelley). My memory is rather fuzzy on the exact details, but the argument is basically that early Christians had been meditating on the birth of the Jewish messiah long before Roman syncretism became a topic of discussion. Indeed, the very notion of Christ as the "sun" (Isa. 60:3; Mal. 4:2) goes at least as far back as Hippolytus of Rome (ca. 170-235 AD).

Indeed, in his "Commentary on Daniel," Hippolytus even argues for a December 25th birth date for Jesus. Obviously, an exact December 25th date would appear, I think to all involved, of dubious historicity (see 1 Chron. 24:10; Lk. 1:5, 26; to the contrary, consult Alfred Edersheim, "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah," Chapter 6, "The Nativity of Jesus the Messiah," for an unpersuasive, yet still very fascinating, counterargument and a rather unique defense of a supposed historical December 25th date).

The point that I'm trying to make is only that meditations on the nativity of Jesus go back way earlier than supposed pagan associations. Given the background of early Christianity in the Second Temple Jewish period, I find it hard to believe that a bunch of Jesus-worshipping folks (especially those saved out of pagan Gentile backgrounds) would be so willing to "borrow" things from the culture they often loathed in part due to its rampant idolatry and gross immorality (Rom. 1:18-32, for just one example).

Conversely, at the same time, the Apostle Paul quoted heathen poets (cf. Acts 17:28; 1 Cor. 15:33; Tit. 1:12), though he seems to have done so only and always because he believed all truth to be God's truth, whatever the original source (2 Cor. 10:5; Col. 2:8; 1 Thess. 5:21). Peter and Jude likewise mention early Jewish apocryphal works (e.g., the Enochian literature in 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 1:6, 14-15, and an allusion to the "Assumption of Moses" in Jude 1:9). So, even if it could be demonstrated that early Christians really did borrow Christmas (or even aspects of Christmas festivities) from Saturnalia, or whatever else, that alone doesn't quite tell us why they (supposedly) did. Granted, I really don't think they did, but that's another issue.

Hey, @AsaClaus, keep it coming, man! I'm really loving the conversation! I'm looking forward to talking more on this!

Edited July 25, 2023 by Sundblom Santa

[AsaClaus]

1 hour ago, Sundblom Santa said:

To follow up on Michael's point, although the archetype of gift givers goes back a few millennia, the relevant answer to the question would be that Santa Claus was mostly based on St. Nicholas of Myra (ca. 270-343 AD). Nicholas, for many of us, is the starting point (although the archetype itself goes back before then). The character of Santa Claus is not (per se) based on the false god Odin, but on the historical person of St. Nicholas of Myra.

While I wince at the term “false god”,  I must also point out that it was Odin we got the reindeer from, the sleigh in the night sky and toys to children. He left wooden figures of animals even wooden swords for children who treated him with kindness while disguised as the “Gray Wanderer”.

In reality, St. Nick loaned a red robe to Santa and not much else. He didn’t even give toys. He resurrected brothers who had been…un alived and payed for young women to get married. 

[AsaClaus]

4 minutes ago, Sundblom Santa said:

Why, thank you! I'm glad you find it stimulating. One thing, though: Saturnalia wasn't stolen by the early Christians (per Talley, Roll, and Kelley). My memory is rather fuzzy on the exact details, but the argument is basically that early Christians had been meditating on the birth of the Jewish messiah long before Roman syncretism became a topic of discussion. Indeed, the very notion of Christ as the "sun" (Isa. 60:3; Mal. 4:2) goes at least as far back as Hippolytus of Rome (ca. 170-235 AD).

Indeed, in his "Commentary on Daniel," Hippolytus even argues for a December 25th birth date for Jesus. Obviously, an exact December 25th date would appear, I think to all involved, of dubious historicity (see 1 Chron. 24:10; Lk. 1:5, 26; to the contrary, consult Alfred Edersheim, "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah," Chapter 6, "The Nativity of Jesus the Messiah," for an unpersuasive, yet still very fascinating, counterargument and a rather unique defense of a supposed historical December 25th date).

The point that I'm trying to make is only that meditations on the nativity of Jesus go back way earlier than supposed pagan associations. Given the background of early Christianity in the Second Temple Jewish period, I find it hard to believe that a bunch of Jesus-worshipping folks (especially those saved out of pagan Gentile backgrounds) would be so willing to "borrow" things from the culture they often loathed in part due to its rampant idolatry and gross immorality (Rom. 1:18-32, for just one example).

Conversely, at the same time, the Apostle Paul quoted heathen poets (cf. Acts 17:28; 1 Cor. 15:33; Tit. 1:12), though he seems to have done so only and always because he believed all truth to be God's truth, whatever the original source (2 Cor. 10:5; Col. 2:8; 1 Thess. 5:21). Peter and Jude likewise mention early Jewish apocryphal works (e.g., the Enochian literature in 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 1:6, 14-15, and an allusion to the "Assumption of Moses" in Jude 1:9). So, even if it could be demonstrated that early Christians really did borrow Christmas (or even aspects of Christmas festivities) from Saturnalia, or whatever else, that alone doesn't quite tell us why they (supposedly) did. Granted, I really don't think they did, but that's another issue.

Hey, @AsaClaus, keep it coming, man! I'm really loving the conversation! I'm looking forward to talking more on this!

Certainly, Brother! All in love and understanding!

It was Pope Julius 1 who decreed Dec 25 as the birth of Yeshua. Up to that point, it had been loosely celebrated in the Springtime. The only known reason for this date change was the popular Roman habit of making their holidays coincide with holidays of those they had overthrown to ensure a smoother transition into their own government and religion. 
Now, Saturnalia was a festival of Saturn where people would light torches leading to the day itself (Advent candles) then exchange gifts with one another. There was also a law where no weapon could be drawn and the Rich had to share their best food and drink with the poor (peace and goodwill toward man).

Of course this is the most direct lineage of the holiday, but I still believe in Santa as a Spirit of hope and good, indifferent of religion or worship. It is about mankind’s ability to be good and kind to itself. A reminder to all, no matter how lost they seem, of the good that does exist within them…of the good that may be done by them. 

[Michael Rielly]

26 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

While I wince at the term “false god”,  I must also point out that it was Odin we got the reindeer from, the sleigh in the night sky and toys to children. He left wooden figures of animals even wooden swords for children who treated him with kindness while disguised as the “Gray Wanderer”.

In reality, St. Nick loaned a red robe to Santa and not much else. He didn’t even give toys. He resurrected brothers who had been…un alived and payed for young women to get married. 

Odin rode an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir. Not a reindeer and not pulling a sleigh.

However, the first known depiction of Santa Claus in a sleigh pulled by reindeer comes from the 1821 poem "Old Santeclaus with Much Delight". In the poem, Saint Nicholas is described as arriving on Christmas Eve in a reindeer-pulled sleigh loaded with gifts for children. The relevant lines state:

"Old Santeclaus with much delight
His reindeer drives this frosty night,
O'er chimney tops, and tracks of snow,
To bring his yearly gifts to you."

This is the first direct reference to Santa Claus utilizing a reindeer-driven sleigh to deliver presents.

 

 

 

[Michael Rielly]

Here is Saint Nicholas explaining how he became Santa Claus.

 

[Sundblom Santa]

45 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

I wince at the term “false god”

I wince at anyone worshipping any other god but Yahweh (Ex. 20:3; Deut. 5:7). Sorry! Just a little friendly jab (no harm intended)! I'm really loving the dialogue and I hope it can continue. I enjoy reading your thoughts, even though I may (sometimes, although certainly not always) disagree. Thank you for the stimulating conversation, friend!

47 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

I must also point out that it was Odin we got the reindeer from, the sleigh in the night sky and toys to children. He left wooden figures of animals even wooden swords for children who treated him with kindness while disguised as the “Gray Wanderer”.

I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but the reindeer came in thanks to the Knickerbockers in colonial (and early America) New York. More specifically, as far as our online community here, you can consult what @Michael Rielly noted above me (if you're reading this, thank you, Michael).

On the reindeer, most standard histories of Christmas in America go over this (for example, although it's not quite my personal favorite, you can consult, "The Battle For Christmas" by Stephen Nissenbaum, Vintage, 1997, for a lay of the land on the topic). As far as the wooden toys themselves, those are associated with a panoply of gift givers all across Europe (not distinctly Odin). Indeed, Odin himself isn't associated with reindeer at all, as far as I can tell. That (supposed) connection came later, after the worship of that "so-called god" (1 Cor. 8:5) thankfully died out as those who had once worshipped Odin became worshippers of the Prince of Peace.

1 hour ago, AsaClaus said:

In reality, St. Nick loaned a red robe to Santa and not much else. He didn’t even give toys. He resurrected brothers who had been…un alived and payed for young women to get married.

While I can't speak to the "red robe," one resource you may find interesting (the story of the three youths that you mentioned is, in actuality, a Medieval interpolation, although based on an early record of the historical Nicholas) would be The St. Nicholas Center. Here: 

Home - St. Nicholas Center

WWW.STNICHOLASCENTER.ORG

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Everything about St Nicholas: stories, customs, crafts & more.

It contains all sorts of really fascinating primary source documentation on the historical figure of St. Nicholas of Myra if you'd be interested in that sort of thing. Incidentally, the story of the three young maidens that you mentioned is actually surprisingly early and is well-attested in the literature on St. Nicholas. If the account is historical (as it seems to have been), then, yes, Nicholas really did give gifts: the gift of much-needed money and the gift of a life free from slavery (especially notable in an era when many young women, sadly, often didn't get many options, let alone good ones).

53 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

It was Pope Julius 1 who decreed Dec 25 as the birth of Yeshua. Up to that point, it had been loosely celebrated in the Springtime. The only known reason for this date change was the popular Roman habit of making their holidays coincide with holidays of those they had overthrown to ensure a smoother transition into their own government and religion. 
Now, Saturnalia was a festival of Saturn where people would light torches leading to the day itself (Advent candles) then exchange gifts with one another. There was also a law where no weapon could be drawn and the Rich had to share their best food and drink with the poor (peace and goodwill toward man).

Of course this is the most direct lineage of the holiday

Now, as far as Pope Julius I (ca. 337-352 AD), he's mainly known to us through history (at least in part) due to his association with Athanasuis of Alexandria during the long and horrible Arian controversy (which I'm sure you know the gist of, so I won't bore you with the details). You can read more about Pope Julius and his alleged association with the Feast of the Nativity (December 25) here: 

Dubious claims: Pope Julius I decided that Jesus was born on 25 December? – Roger Pearse

WWW.ROGER-PEARSE.COM

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Christmas comes round every year, and every year somebody will tell us that Pope Julius I (337-352 AD) in 350, or 352, or 320 – the supposed date varies – decided that Jesus was born on…

I haven't had time to vet Mr. Pearse, although, from what little I can tell, he's a Patristic scholar. You may find something valuable in what he writes. As as aside, it seems he has some material on Nicholas (although not quite to the degree "The St. Nicholas Center" does). My apologies for the very short response, but it's getting late (I'll soon be retiring to bed for the night).

Nevertheless, whether or not you agree with the author's conclusions, yet much of the same idea that he challenges (that Christmas was moved to December 25 thanks to alleged Roman-Christian syncretism) has been hotly contested and challenged for a number of decades by numerous Christian scholars from different denominations and backgrounds (like Talley, Roll, and Kelly . . . and, even then, as far back as the 1990's).

[Sundblom Santa]

42 minutes ago, Michael Rielly said:

Here is Saint Nicholas explaining how he became Santa Claus.

 

Love @Fr. Joseph Marquis! Many thanks for sharing, Michael!