Non Saint Oath?

[Santa Craig Maxwell]

"Well I was gonna say I saw a Ducky, and a Horsie, but I changed my mind"  Charlie Brown

[AsaClaus]

1 hour ago, Michael Rielly said:

Odin rode an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir. Not a reindeer and not pulling a sleigh.

However, the first known depiction of Santa Claus in a sleigh pulled by reindeer comes from the 1821 poem "Old Santeclaus with Much Delight". In the poem, Saint Nicholas is described as arriving on Christmas Eve in a reindeer-pulled sleigh loaded with gifts for children. The relevant lines state:

"Old Santeclaus with much delight
His reindeer drives this frosty night,
O'er chimney tops, and tracks of snow,
To bring his yearly gifts to you."

This is the first direct reference to Santa Claus utilizing a reindeer-driven sleigh to deliver presents.

 

 

 

Right because 8 legs and 8 reindeer is too far a stretch. Also Odin ran a hunt through the sky that all watched for in glee. 

[AsaClaus]

43 minutes ago, Sundblom Santa said:

I wince at anyone worshipping any other god but Yahweh (Ex. 20:3; Deut. 5:7). Sorry! Just a little friendly jab (no harm intended)! I'm really loving the dialogue and I hope it can continue. I enjoy reading your thoughts, even though I may (sometimes, although certainly not always) disagree. Thank you for the stimulating conversation, friend!

I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but the reindeer came in thanks to the Knickerbockers in colonial (and early America) New York. More specifically, as far as our online community here, you can consult what @Michael Rielly noted above me (if you're reading this, thank you, Michael).

On the reindeer, most standard histories of Christmas in America go over this (for example, although it's not quite my personal favorite, you can consult, "The Battle For Christmas" by Stephen Nissenbaum, Vintage, 1997, for a lay of the land on the topic). As far as the wooden toys themselves, those are associated with a panoply of gift givers all across Europe (not distinctly Odin). Indeed, Odin himself isn't associated with reindeer at all, as far as I can tell. That (supposed) connection came later, after the worship of that "so-called god" (1 Cor. 8:5) thankfully died out as those who had once worshipped Odin became worshippers of the Prince of Peace.

While I can't speak to the "red robe," one resource you may find interesting (the story of the three youths that you mentioned is, in actuality, a Medieval interpolation, although based on an early record of the historical Nicholas) would be The St. Nicholas Center. Here: 

Home - St. Nicholas Center

WWW.STNICHOLASCENTER.ORG

---

Everything about St Nicholas: stories, customs, crafts & more.

It contains all sorts of really fascinating primary source documentation on the historical figure of St. Nicholas of Myra if you'd be interested in that sort of thing. Incidentally, the story of the three young maidens that you mentioned is actually surprisingly early and is well-attested in the literature on St. Nicholas. If the account is historical (as it seems to have been), then, yes, Nicholas really did give gifts: the gift of much-needed money and the gift of a life free from slavery (especially notable in an era when many young women, sadly, often didn't get many options, let alone good ones).

Now, as far as Pope Julius I (ca. 337-352 AD), he's mainly known to us through history (at least in part) due to his association with Athanasuis of Alexandria during the long and horrible Arian controversy (which I'm sure you know the gist of, so I won't bore you with the details). You can read more about Pope Julius and his alleged association with the Feast of the Nativity (December 25) here: 

Dubious claims: Pope Julius I decided that Jesus was born on 25 December? – Roger Pearse

WWW.ROGER-PEARSE.COM

---

Christmas comes round every year, and every year somebody will tell us that Pope Julius I (337-352 AD) in 350, or 352, or 320 – the supposed date varies – decided that Jesus was born on…

I haven't had time to vet Mr. Pearse, although, from what little I can tell, he's a Patristic scholar. You may find something valuable in what he writes. As as aside, it seems he has some material on Nicholas (although not quite to the degree "The St. Nicholas Center" does). My apologies for the very short response, but it's getting late (I'll soon be retiring to bed for the night).

Nevertheless, whether or not you agree with the author's conclusions, yet much of the same idea that he challenges (that Christmas was moved to December 25 thanks to alleged Roman-Christian syncretism) has been hotly contested and challenged for a number of decades by numerous Christian scholars from different denominations and backgrounds (like Talley, Roll, and Kelly . . . and, even then, as far back as the 1990's).

I guess my first wonder is why the “alleged”? It’s historical fact. I love you and all my Santa brethren, but there is history and there is theology, two very different things. It hurts me personally to think people devalue Santa if not tied to Jesus (not even a real name) and St. Nicholas. 
We are all here to spread love, peace and goodwill to children and all mankind. Why does it somehow lose value or “reality” if it had no connection to Jesus or a Saint that paid for young women to get married?

[AsaClaus]

1 hour ago, Michael Rielly said:

Odin rode an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir. Not a reindeer and not pulling a sleigh.

However, the first known depiction of Santa Claus in a sleigh pulled by reindeer comes from the 1821 poem "Old Santeclaus with Much Delight". In the poem, Saint Nicholas is described as arriving on Christmas Eve in a reindeer-pulled sleigh loaded with gifts for children. The relevant lines state:

"Old Santeclaus with much delight
His reindeer drives this frosty night,
O'er chimney tops, and tracks of snow,
To bring his yearly gifts to you."

This is the first direct reference to Santa Claus utilizing a reindeer-driven sleigh to deliver presents.

 

 

 

I love you Brother. Even if your own Judeo-Christian beliefs blind you to academic truth. 

[SantaKurtKyre]

9 hours ago, Rob Thompson said:

Absolutely true,

Too many chasing the money at the expense of the gift we have been given/taken on, to share our passion for and expressing the true meaning of Christmas 

That is strangely and sadly so true. One of the most prevalent questions I have been asked has been about the money I might make portraying Santa. I tell them that when I became Santa for my company Christmas luncheon, my boss said that he'd make it, "worth my while". I said that was unnecessary. Later, he said that in the past they had paid the gentleman in booze, but he didn't know what I drank. I drink only very rarely. So, in the end, he gave me a Home Depot gift card. I told him that was something I could always use 

[Rob Thompson]

Lets have another cup of tea and cheer ourselves up  

 

[SantaKurtKyre]

3 minutes ago, Rob Thompson said:

Lets have another cup of tea and cheer ourselves up  

 

I made some sweet tea last night ☺️

[Michael Rielly]

6 hours ago, AsaClaus said:

I love you Brother. Even if your own Judeo-Christian beliefs blind you to academic truth. 

Simple truth: both Nicholas and Jesus were real people.

Jesus was a spiritual leader who defined central Christian virtues and beliefs. Nicholas followed Jesus' teachings on love, charity, and generosity. My "blind belief" as you call it, is to follow these teachings to the best of my ability. Now to bring this full circle, the Santa Claus Oath is based on these same principles. Just ask the author.

[Sundblom Santa]

9 hours ago, AsaClaus said:

there is history and there is theology, two very different things. It hurts me personally to think people devalue Santa if not tied to Jesus (not even a real name) and St. Nicholas.

OK, well, a couple things:

(1) history and theology come (as I believe) from the same God (Gen. 1:1) revealed in Jesus Christ (1 Jn. 1:1-4). He is the same God proclaimed by Nicholas. Indeed, the city where Nicholas lived (Myra in Lycia) was on Paul and Luke's itinerary (Acts 27:5), so we would expect Christianization (even down to the time of St. Nicholas), given the missionary context of Paul's travels.

(2) the name "Jesus" (Greek, Ἰησοῦς) is most certainly a "real name." It's just a Latinization of the Greek version of the Hebrew name "Joshua" (Hebrew, יְהוֹשׁוּעַ; Aramaic, Yeshua). There's typological significance tied to His Name (Matt. 1:21; note the sort of double entendre going on in Heb. 4:8, with Joshua ("Jesus") the son of Nun being unable to provide physical rest and Jesus the Son of God providing an even better, eternal rest).

Edited July 25, 2023 by Sundblom Santa

[Tim Mack]

13 hours ago, AsaClaus said:

That aside, I do not portray Santa myself but instead seek to live more like the Santa Claus of universal lore. Generous, caring, understanding and patient. He sees all children as “nice” and has no use for religion or the withholding of gifts to coerce niceness

I am confused here. Why would a person who does not portray Santa want anything to do with a group called ClausNet.  Then post things on here to try to antagonize other members and their beliefs.  And use a moniker of As a Claus.

I do feel and think that if everyone not just those of us here on ClausNet would be more generous, caring, understanding and patient this would be a much better world.   I just can't figure out why someone  like Asa Claus  wants to bring on so many of the opposite things in his post and bring so much discontent on himself.  I wish you well but I also wish you could find another outlet for such comments.

[Sundblom Santa]

9 hours ago, AsaClaus said:

Even if your own Judeo-Christian beliefs blind you

OK, well, here I am (well, really, Michael and I are) trying to be nice. I'm done trying on this one, friend. You haven't even bothered consulting any of the copious amounts of material I've given you (I haven't even gotten to the bibliography on St. Nicholas yet). We'll have to just agree to disagree on this one. I may post the bibliographical material on St. Nicholas later on (I just need to type it all out).

Yet, one thing I couldn't help but notice: "And Jesus said, 'For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.' Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, 'We are not blind too, are we?' Jesus said to them, 'If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, "We see," your sin remains'" (Jn. 9:39-41).

Now, before you jump the gun, friend, I'm certainly not accusing you of being blind. I'm simply trying to point out (with gentleness, respect, and brotherly affection) that one shouldn't throw stones at glass houses without doing research beforehand (see, once again, the historians Talley, Roll, and Kelly on the history of Christmas).

9 hours ago, AsaClaus said:

academic truth. 

OK, one more time: "For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ" (Jn. 1:17). "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth" (Jn. 17:17). Jesus Christ is the fulcrum on which all of history swings, divided (as it is) between the time before His coming and the time afterwards. He is the One Who will judge the world in righteousness.

More to the point, He is the same God worshipped and loved by Nicholas of Myra, who obeyed his Lord's words to love the poor and needy, giving much-needed help to a poor man and saving his three daughters from a life of slavery. Such love the false god Odin never inspired.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Sundblom Santa

[Sundblom Santa]

1 hour ago, Tim Mack said:

I am confused here. Why would a person who does not portray Santa want anything to do with a group called ClausNet.  Then post things on here to try to antagonize other members and their beliefs.  And use a moniker of As a Claus.

I do feel and think that if everyone not just those of us here on ClausNet would be more generous, caring, understanding and patient this would be a much better world.   I just can't figure out why someone  like Asa Claus  wants to bring on so many of the opposite things in his post and bring so much discontent on himself.  I wish you well but I also wish you could find another outlet for such comments.

Wait, @AsaClaus, you don't portray Santa Claus? Would you like to portray Santa Claus? Are you ever planning on portraying Santa Claus? Are you even interested at all in portraying Santa Claus? If not (forgive the bluntness, I'm just really, very confused): why are you here?

If you don't desire to portray Santa Claus and learn of the craft (as we do), it seems unwise to continue the dialogue here. I love you, friend, and I wish you the best of luck (both on and off ClausNet), but I can't help you learn if you don't want help (or even worse, if you think you don't need it, when we all need it, no matter how long we've been in the suit—I know I need it).

Edited July 25, 2023 by Sundblom Santa

[Sundblom Santa]

5 hours ago, Rob Thompson said:

Lets have another cup of tea and cheer ourselves up  

 

Indeed, @Rob Thompson and @SantaKurtKyre, I'm a little surprised how . . . frustrating this thread has become (on all sides). I'm just glad I'm not as angry as John Adams . . . 

Love the sarcasm: "If it were moved and seconded that two and three make five, we should spend two whole days debating the matter, and only then pass a resolution in the affirmative" (0:28-0:37). Sometimes, you just have to sigh, take a deep breath, and drink a nice cup of tea.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Sundblom Santa

[AsaClaus]

4 hours ago, Tim Mack said:

I am confused here. Why would a person who does not portray Santa want anything to do with a group called ClausNet.  Then post things on here to try to antagonize other members and their beliefs.  And use a moniker of As a Claus.

I do feel and think that if everyone not just those of us here on ClausNet would be more generous, caring, understanding and patient this would be a much better world.   I just can't figure out why someone  like Asa Claus  wants to bring on so many of the opposite things in his post and bring so much discontent on himself.  I wish you well but I also wish you could find another outlet for such comments.

Asa is a head nod to the Odin origins of Santa. 
I love Santa Claus and believe there is space for all interpretations (except for trash like the “Fat Man” or “Violent Night” movies).

I post questions here for two reasons:expand my own understanding of Santa lore and others’ experiences and also to share in the love and giving spirit of Claus. 
I do not mean to antagonize anyone and am sure that if you look at my posts you’ll fine nothing antagonizing. 

[AsaClaus]

6 hours ago, Michael Rielly said:

Simple truth: both Nicholas and Jesus were real people.

Jesus was a spiritual leader who defined central Christian virtues and beliefs. Nicholas followed Jesus' teachings on love, charity, and generosity. My "blind belief" as you call it, is to follow these teachings to the best of my ability. Now to bring this full circle, the Santa Claus Oath is based on these same principles. Just ask the author.

I’m not here to challenge one’s religious beliefs. What I mean to say is that Santa Claus is an icon that represents the inherent good in people no matter what you fee the reason for that good is. 

[AsaClaus]

4 hours ago, Sundblom Santa said:

Wait, @AsaClaus, you don't portray Santa Claus? Would you like to portray Santa Claus? Are you ever planning on portraying Santa Claus? Are you even interested at all in portraying Santa Claus? If not (forgive the bluntness, I'm just really, very confused): why are you here?

If you don't desire to portray Santa Claus and learn of the craft (as we do), it seems unwise to continue the dialogue here. I love you, friend, and I wish you the best of luck (both on and off ClausNet), but I can't help you learn if you don't want help (or even worse, if you think you don't need it, when we all need it, no matter how long we've been in the suit—I know I need it).

I am here as two things: a historian and a person who wants to be Santa. By that I mean to embody the charity, love and generosity of Santa in my real life. 
I may one day choose to put on the coat and hat, but I believe there is much more that Santa can offer in everyday life. 
I take no offense and mean none. 

[Sundblom Santa]

6 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

I am here as two things: a historian and a person who wants to be Santa. By that I mean to embody the charity, love and generosity of Santa in my real life. 
I may one day choose to put on the coat and hat, but I believe there is much more that Santa can offer in everyday life. 
I take no offense and mean none. 

Good.

23 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

except for trash like the “Fat Man” or “Violent Night” movies

Well, thank goodness we got THAT out of the way. Only thing: that's an offense to trash. Even trash isn't as bad as those two "movies" (I really hate to even call them that—they're just an insult to good films).

[Rob Thompson]

15 hours ago, Michael Rielly said:

Here is Saint Nicholas explaining how he became Santa Claus.

 

Love it  

[SantaJoe]

[Michael Rielly]

17 hours ago, AsaClaus said:

We are all here to spread love, peace and goodwill to children and all mankind. Why does it somehow lose value or “reality” if it had no connection to Jesus or a Saint that paid for young women to get married?

Technically Nicholas provided the dowries to keep them from being sold into slavery.

I personally have no issue with Santas having no connection to Christianity. Santa can be both secular and nonsecular.   

[Santa Craig Maxwell]

31 minutes ago, Michael Rielly said:

I personally have no issue with Santas having no connection to Christianity. Santa can be both secular and nonsecular.   

Sounds good

[Tim Mack]

I personally think this has gone on enough maybe a different topic.

 

[Sundblom Santa]

2 hours ago, Tim Mack said:

I personally think this has gone on enough maybe a different topic.

I think so as well, Tim. I've very much enjoyed reading your contributions, but I agree. I think we can all move on to more fruitful, edifying topics that (hopefully) don't cause as much "controversy" (although I don't think that St. Nicholas of Myra should be the cause of any controversy).

Edited July 26, 2023 by Sundblom Santa

[Sundblom Santa]

22 hours ago, Santa Craig Maxwell said:

"Well I was gonna say I saw a Ducky, and a Horsie, but I changed my mind"  Charlie Brown

OK, Craig, tell us what you really think!

[scottishstnick]

[scottishstnick]

11 hours ago, AsaClaus said:

Asa is a head nod to the Odin origins of Santa. 
I love Santa Claus and believe there is space for all interpretations (except for trash like the “Fat Man” or “Violent Night” movies).

I post questions here for two reasons:expand my own understanding of Santa lore and others’ experiences and also to share in the love and giving spirit of Claus. 
I do not mean to antagonize anyone and am sure that if you look at my posts you’ll fine nothing antagonizing. 

? Have you ever seen violent night? 

[scottishstnick]

Me ATM after asking for clarification on if they have even seen a movie that's being trashed in this forum...

[TamaleClaus]

[scottishstnick]

[Black Hills Santa]

This whole discussion

 

[scottishstnick]

3 minutes ago, Black Hills Santa said:

This whole discussion

 

[Sundblom Santa]

1 hour ago, scottishstnick said:

[Rob Thompson]

Night night  

[scottishstnick]

I'm going to assume that this is now a complete discussion an no further input or response to further questions in the topic is going to be made?

 

 

[Rob Thompson]

1 hour ago, scottishstnick said:

I'm going to assume that this is now a complete discussion an no further input or response to further questions in the topic is going to be made?

 

 

The only time a thread is closed is when a moderator closes it. Having said that some posts come to a natural conclusion, which it would appear is the case here, but you never know as some of the CN community may not have read it yet and may have a valuable contribution/different take on the subject.

[scottishstnick]

3 hours ago, Rob Thompson said:

The only time a thread is closed is when a moderator closes it. Having said that some posts come to a natural conclusion, which it would appear is the case here, but you never know as some of the CN community may not have read it yet and may have a valuable contribution/different take on the subject.

I was only commenting because I asked a question but nobody cares to answer which that's fine I expected that you know it's one thing to State your opinion but to defend it it's another...

[Rob Thompson]

17 minutes ago, scottishstnick said:

I was only commenting because I asked a question but nobody cares to answer which that's fine I expected that you know it's one thing to State your opinion but to defend it it's another...

I thought I was answering your question?

Im at a loss re the comment, ' I expected that you know it's one thing to State your opinion but to defend it it's another...' 

I wasnt expecting you to 'defend' any thing, why would I ??

Again, I thought my answer to your question was informative and answered said question. If you found my answer to your question to be unfriendly or otherwise, perhaps private message to discuss

Any way, I shall scratch my head bemusingly !

[scottishstnick]

Just now, Rob Thompson said:

I thought I was answering your question?

Im at a loss re the comment, ' I expected that you know it's one thing to State your opinion but to defend it it's another...' 

I wasnt expecting you to 'defend' any thing, why would I ??

Again, I thought my answer to your question was informative and answered said question. If you found my answer to your question to be unfriendly or otherwise, perhaps private message to discuss

Any way, I shall scratch my head bemusingly !

The question I had was further up the forum ... It was asking for a little bit of clarity as to why a harsh stance on a few movies... This was towards a different Santa for the most part....

[Rob Thompson]

27 minutes ago, scottishstnick said:

I was only commenting because I asked a question but nobody cares to answer which that's fine I expected that you know it's one thing to State your opinion but to defend it it's another...

PS, re nobody 'cares to answer'. You will find that it can take sometime for a response to questions as folk, dip in and out of CN during the course of the day, it doesnt mean folk dont care,

dont worry : 

[Rob Thompson]

Just now, scottishstnick said:

The question I had was further up the forum ... It was asking for a little bit of clarity as to why a harsh stance on a few movies... This was towards a different Santa for the most part....

Perhaps the question you refer to would have been best directed to that Santa you were asking a question of rather than responding to my response to the last question of yours I read.

Im getting lost off now, 

Anyway, I cant be on with frustrations, Im here to learn, enjoy and have fun    

[scottishstnick]

1 minute ago, Rob Thompson said:

Perhaps the question you refer to would have been best directed to that Santa you were asking a question of rather than responding to my response to the last question of yours I read.

Im getting lost off now, 

Anyway, I cant be on with frustrations, Im here to learn, enjoy and have fun    

I'm not frustrated I'm just trying to learn why someone would be dug in about something but not willing to give input as to reason why if this is supposed to be a sharing and learning scenario on any of these forum posts it's tough to learn when you're not giving all the info.

Either way I am going to unfollow and not respond in this post any longer since the posters that will not depend their answers for shoes not to it's not worth my time to keep reading any of these so nothing towards you it's kind of just curiosity towards the other Santas that are pretty stuck in their ways and not willing to discuss or just I don't know anyways I've already had this conversation with a different mod off line that I talk to on here and he understands why I was curious... Now I'm not so...

 

 

[Rob Thompson]

2 minutes ago, scottishstnick said:

I'm not frustrated I'm just trying to learn why someone would be dug in about something but not willing to give input as to reason why if this is supposed to be a sharing and learning scenario on any of these forum posts it's tough to learn when you're not giving all the info.

Either way I am going to unfollow and not respond in this post any longer since the posters that will not depend their answers for shoes not to it's not worth my time to keep reading any of these so nothing towards you it's kind of just curiosity towards the other Santas that are pretty stuck in their ways and not willing to discuss or just I don't know anyways I've already had this conversation with a different mod off line that I talk to on here and he understands why I was curious... Now I'm not so...

 

 

Im totally lost now sorry

 

[scottishstnick]

On 7/25/2023 at 12:58 PM, AsaClaus said:

Asa is a head nod to the Odin origins of Santa. 
I love Santa Claus and believe there is space for all interpretations (except for trash like the “Fat Man” or “Violent Night” movies).

I post questions here for two reasons:expand my own understanding of Santa lore and others’ experiences and also to share in the love and giving spirit of Claus. 
I do not mean to antagonize anyone and am sure that if you look at my posts you’ll fine nothing antagonizing. 

Would have loved to know what the reason for being so hard on violent night is however... I see others knowledge via explaining your dislike seems counter productive... Nonetheless. ... Thanks.

[Felix Estridge]

On 7/24/2023 at 10:11 AM, AsaClaus said:

Is anyone aware of an oath that doesn’t mention St. Nick? For those of us who believe in the power and good of Santa Claus but choose to not incorporate religious philosophies into the oath itself?

I am not aware of any such that exists.

[Rob Thompson]

11 hours ago, Felix Estridge said:

I am not aware of any such that exists.

This posted earlier may have saved some bandwidth lol 😆 

[Felix Estridge]

4 hours ago, Rob Thompson said:

This posted earlier may have saved some bandwidth lol 😆 

And some steam.

[Rob Thompson]

2 minutes ago, Felix Estridge said:

And some steam.

Love it lol

[AsaClaus]

On 7/27/2023 at 10:42 AM, scottishstnick said:

Would have loved to know what the reason for being so hard on violent night is however... I see others knowledge via explaining your dislike seems counter productive... Nonetheless. ... Thanks.

Well I feel that movies that take such a violent take on Claus can damage children’s vision of the character. He’s meant to be hope and joy and playfulness and I think we can all agree on that. So even though the film is intended for adults, it’s an iffy position for a movie. 

[scottishstnick]

53 minutes ago, AsaClaus said:

Well I feel that movies that take such a violent take on Claus can damage children’s vision of the character. He’s meant to be hope and joy and playfulness and I think we can all agree on that. So even though the film is intended for adults, it’s an iffy position for a movie. 

Sooo is your opinion based on seeing it or not seeing it?

[AsaClaus]

12 hours ago, scottishstnick said:

Sooo is your opinion based on seeing it or not seeing it?

Seeing.